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Saturday, December 15, 2012

Mailvox: Free will and Romans 1:24

JJ asks about an approach to omniderigence that is new to me:
I'm a long time VP reader and a believer in both God and free will who has encountered the latter part of Romans 1 as an argument against free will. My opponent claims that either God prevented jews before from committing the various sins listed, or caused them by making them sin as a punishment, when the Bible says that He gave them over to sin.

My take on the question is as follows: Paul does not explicitly state that God was preventing the jews' free will either before or after. By abandoning them to their sin it simply means God gave up hope on them and the sins listed after weren't his causing nor will, and God didn't prevent them from committing the various sins listed at any time. This raises the question if the listed sins were even happening only after God abandoned them or did they go hand in hand with idolatry and suchlike?

Am I twisting the Scripture to suit my wish to see free will when there is none? What is your view of the latter part of Romans 1?

P.S. Please pardon my english if it's clumsy, it's not my native tongue.
 The obvious thing is to look first at the entire section, beginning with Romans 1:18 and titled "God’s Wrath Against Sinful Humanity".  Romans 1:18-25 states:

"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.  

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.  

Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles. Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.  They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen."

There are a number of interesting points raised by this passage.  First, God doesn't treat everyone equally.  He deals with them in response to their actions.  Second, our thoughts are not always futile nor are our hearts always dark.  Third, our sinful desires are from our hearts, which are somehow distinct from God.  And fourth, this passage is indicative of the existence of free will, not evidence of its absence.

When one "gives X over to someone else", one is not dictating their actions, one is withdrawing one's own influence over X and permitting other influences to take precedence.  If Man had no free will, God would have nothing else to give him over to; He would simply be giving Man over to Himself.  But that would be to make God the author of the very sinful desires and wickedness that inspires His wrath. which would indicate a schizophrenic Supreme Being.

JJ's opponent's argument is easily dismantled because it depends upon the idea that the Jews were not committing the sins referred to in this passage prior to the giving over.  I don't believe that to be the case, given the numerous references to sexual immorality in the Old Testament.  But the argument is also erroneous on the basis of the passage itself, as I suspect even some of those belonging to Team Calvin will agree.

Labels:

65 Comments:

Blogger WATYF December 15, 2012 1:20 PM  

Yeah, there are much better passages to use if you're trying to form an argument against free will.

WATYF

Anonymous Anonymous December 15, 2012 1:23 PM  

This seems clear enough to me... And it really shows the personality of God which is cool... I love you but if you don't want me that's fine, I'll move on to people who do

Blogger Positive Dennis December 15, 2012 1:30 PM  

It seems that God has turned them over to sins, in order to show them mercy later.

Anonymous Log December 15, 2012 1:34 PM  

Creatio ex nihilo means God is the author of the very sinfil desires and wickedness that inspires His wrath, which indicates a schizophrenic Supreme Being.

Of course, creatio ex nihilo is nowhere to be found in the Bible...

Anonymous Freddy December 15, 2012 1:38 PM  

"The arrogant cannot cannot stand in your presence, you hate all who do wrong; you destroy those who tell lies. The bloodthirsty and deceitful you detest."

It seems God personally hates some people with perfect hatred.

Anonymous The Lesser of Two Kahunas December 15, 2012 1:57 PM  

"it really shows the personality of God which is cool... I love you but if you don't want Me that's fine"

Well, no. What He really technically says throughout is, If you don't want Me, then I'll hurl you into a lake of fire where you will shriek in agony for all eternity.

It's one of the stumbling blocks on which I have to admit to stumbling.



Anonymous Bible scholar December 15, 2012 2:04 PM  

"Second, our thoughts are not always futile nor are our hearts always dark."

May I also add that the passage discusses a digression rooted in idolatry and unthankfulness.

"Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles."Romans 1:22-23

Moral of the story: Don't mess with idolatry.

OpenID okrahead December 15, 2012 2:09 PM  

Joshua 24:15 (KJV) " And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord."
Joshua told Israel to choose. Israel chose. Paul discusses the result of that choice in Romans 1:24. Free choice, free will.

Anonymous Bible scholar December 15, 2012 2:09 PM  

"Well, no. What He really technically says throughout is, If you don't want Me, then I'll hurl you into a lake of fire where you will shriek in agony for all eternity."

Actually no He said/says this..."This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live." Deuteronomy 30:19

Anonymous zen0 December 15, 2012 2:48 PM  

The Lesser of Two Kahunas December 15, 2012 1:57 PM

"it really shows the personality of God which is cool... I love you but if you don't want Me that's fine"

Well, no. What He really technically says throughout is, If you don't want Me, then I'll hurl you into a lake of fire where you will shriek in agony for all eternity.

It's one of the stumbling blocks on which I have to admit to stumbling.

Well, of course. It is supposed to be a stumbling block to the truth. That is why synagogues of Satan promote it.

Try reading more:


Turned Into Hell


The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God."--Psa. 9:17.

Anonymous BluntForceTrauma December 15, 2012 2:54 PM  

Am very much in the free will camp, but disagree with this: "But that would be to make God the author of the very sinful desires and wickedness that inspires His wrath. which would indicate a schizophrenic Supreme Being."

God is NOT the author of sinful desires. God is the author of good desires run amok when the INFLUENCE of his Spirit on the human spirit is withdrawn. The God-created desire for food is not bad; but gluttony is a corruption of that good desire.

Remember how God declared that "it was good" after he rested from his creative work?

The God-created desire for sex is not bad; but apart from the influence of his Spirit that desire is corrupted and perverted.

God created all good pleasures. Apart from God, the UN-godly person's soul becomes twisted and addictive.

Anonymous The Lesser of Two Kahunas: Devil's Advocate December 15, 2012 2:55 PM  

"I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses."

You're making my argument for me. What He says is, exactly as you cited: "Do as I say, and you will have good things and live. Refuse to do as I say, and I will not simply withhold the good things I offered and call it a fair cop; instead I will visit you with curses and then kill you. But, hey, it's a free choice, there's no coercion." And then He even tells them which thing to choose, implicitly threatening to kill them, AND their children, if they choose the wrong way. What sort of choice is that? And how big of a thumb is that on the scales?

Later, at the very end of the book, in Revelation, He says something like "all the murderers and adulterers and [doers of various other things He disapproves of] were cast into the lake of fire."

Consider the difference in scope of mind between God and Man, and between Man and a puppy. There is a vastly greater difference between God and Man; comparatively speaking, in God's eyes, Man and a puppy are close to equal in intelligence.

Now let's say you're house-training a puppy and it poops on the living room carpet. In order to teach it, you rap it on the nose with a newspaper. If, to punish the puppy for pooping on the carpet, you burned the dog alive, they'd put you in jail. And if you somehow contrived to burn the dog alive in such a way that it would continue burning alive for a decade, you'd be shunned as a pyschopath. And if you somehow, mad scientist that you are, figured out a way to burn the dog alive for a thousand years, you'd go down in the annals of history as the chief all-star maniac of insane cruelty. Yet God threatens to do all this and much, much worse, if we don't do as He says, and moreover, much of what He says is sort of counter-intuitive to us as physical beings and goes against our sex-drives, our self-defense mechanisms, and various other instinctive reflexes He endowed us with -- much the same as the puppy goes against its nature when it becomes house-trained. It's not a free bargain, it's a loaded one.

Now granted, nevertheless I still believe in God. But I admit to being confounded by this. Hasn't this element of doctrine ever troubled you? Don't you think it is at least a cause for a bit of puzzlement? In any event, no matter what you think of it, it is clearly not the same thing as "if you don't want Me that's fine, I'll move on to people who do," which was the assertion above. That is simply not what the God of the Bible says to us. Apparently it is NOT fine with him. Even Jesus told his disciples, if a town refused to hear them, to leave them alone -- but that was not the end of it. He also said that in the fullness of time it would go worse with that town than for Sodom and Gomorrah, which were vaporized. You can of course make a perfectly good apologetics based on God's omnipotence and absolute sovereignty; but what you can't claim is that on general human terms it's a square deal.

Blogger RobertT December 15, 2012 3:01 PM  

When everyone about me are losing their minds and spouting their feelings and other nonsense as though it somehow mattered, it's a pleasure to log into your blog and come face to face with your logical, rational and sensible views.

Anonymous BluntForceTrauma December 15, 2012 3:09 PM  

@TwoKahunas: I see it as God's justice in eternal judgment is relative to the cosmic value of the happiness of the universe of all created beings that accrues when God is loved as he deserves.

God is love.

To love one's fellow human being is to love God.

To love all makes all happy and is blessedness all round.

When everybody plays nice in the playground, it's all good.

When a kid starts pushing other kids off the slide and taking their toy shovels away, that kid creates misery in the playground.

So the Supervisor removes the bad actor.

Jesus said at the end of the age the angels will weed out of the kingdom of God all who do evil, all those creating misery by their selfishness.

He who believes is NOT condemned, he who does NOT believe stands condemned already, and his worm dieth not and his fire is not quenched.

Don't be one of those who partners with the Destroyer of the playground's happiness, for you shall share his fate.

Jesus wants to save ALL from their own selfishness? Do you want to keep your selfishness in the face of God and be your own king? Ain't but one King. You oughtta know THAT at Christmastime. Just sayin'.

Anonymous Bible scholar December 15, 2012 3:10 PM  

"What sort of choice is that?"

A responsible one ie... you're responsible for your choices.

Blogger Tuplis December 15, 2012 3:11 PM  

JJ here. Thank you for taking the time to explain the passage, it was helpful. The funny thing about this is that I browsed through a few commentaries on the passage and most of them agreed at least with the chronological order my opponent presented. I saw it differently, as seen above, but wanted clarification to find out if I was blind to something obvious here.

Anonymous Bible scholar December 15, 2012 3:20 PM  

"much of what He says is sort of counter-intuitive to us as physical beings and goes against our sex-drives, our self-defense mechanisms, and various other instinctive reflexes He endowed us with..."


"Telling us to obey instinct is like telling us to obey 'people.' People say different things: so do instincts. Our instincts are at war... Each instinct, if you listen to it, will claim to be gratified at the expense of the rest." C. S. Lewis



Anonymous Bible scholar December 15, 2012 3:29 PM  

"Hasn't this element of doctrine ever troubled you? Don't you think it is at least a cause for a bit of puzzlement?"

Lewis said the doors of Hell are barred from the inside...

Anonymous Freddy December 15, 2012 3:50 PM  

All you "free willers" always fail to acknowledge the nature of man as the bible depicts. "Children of wrath, dead in sin..." etc. His will is in bondage so he isn't as free as you might think. Christ tells his disciples "you did not chose me, but I chose you and one of you is the devil. Man can only do according to his nature. If he is unredeemed his "works" profit him nothing. If you do chose Christ it is becsuse Christ has called you and enabled you. Nobody is free. We are slaves to something.

Anonymous Outlaw X December 15, 2012 3:55 PM  

I wrote a long paper on thid witj outdated pencil and paper. I would post it bit ss Vox would say, get your own damn blog. Not that important maybe I'll post a short version.

Anonymous BluntForceTrauma December 15, 2012 4:38 PM  

@Freddy: Yes, the doctrine of free will must be tempered, indeed, reconciled with the fallenness and depravity of man.

We are both free and enslaved at the same time.

Our will is free to do what we SHOULD, but our desires are enslaved to do only what we WANT. Who will rescue us from this body of death? The Spirit of God, given freely and without limit to those who believe.

Thus, the cosmic crime in the Kingdom of God is to refuse to receive the free gift of righteousness, bought for all humanity by the blood of The Anointed, and so be saved.

Anonymous Orville December 15, 2012 4:52 PM  

2Thessalonians 2 discusses another aspect of God's withholding or suppression of evil, in this case the spirit of anti-christ, and also speaks of God sending mass delusion upon the world, again for the same basic reason as in Romans 1, rejection of divine truth.

I propose that God uses this suppressing and releasing of delusion on a much smaller scale everyday in response to a person's choice to worship God or something other than God.

We see everyday the end result of degenerate evilness as described in the latter half of Romans 1, yet, as with the Connecticut shooting, we ask ourselves why does this happen, when the answer is plainly before us here in Romans 1.

Anonymous stg58/Animal Mother December 15, 2012 4:58 PM  

What nature within us prompts us to choose God, if we are dead in trespasses and In sins, and we have a carnal nature that is spiritually dead and in enmity with God?

Blogger Brad Andrews December 15, 2012 5:00 PM  

I think I can agree with all VD says here. Wow!

TwoKs, I am convinced the punishment is more a part of being apart from God than something he "adds on" to prove something.

Keep in mind that this earth is the closes those who don't know God will get to Him and the farthest those who know Him will be from Him.

Those who chose to be separate will be separate and bear the pains of that separation. It is quite possible to "burning" is merely a way to exist in such separation.

Anonymous stg58/Animal Mother December 15, 2012 5:08 PM  

What nature within us prompts us to choose God, if we are dead in trespasses and In sins, and we have a carnal nature that is spiritually dead and in enmity with God?

Anonymous stg58/Animal Mother December 15, 2012 5:08 PM  

What nature within us prompts us to choose God, if we are dead in trespasses and In sins, and we have a carnal nature that is spiritually dead and in enmity with God?

Anonymous Freddy December 15, 2012 5:25 PM  

"You shall name him Jesus for he will save his people from their sin." MATT 1:21

His purchase, the redemption of his "peculiar people, the elect, his bride," cannot be mistaken for all humanity simply because Christ's atonement is perfect and efficacious in whom it is applied to. The call goes out iniversally to "all men....all kinds of men," but those whom Christ "foreknew He also predestined and whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified, and whom He also justified, these He also glorified." Romans 8:29

Anonymous Freddy December 15, 2012 5:27 PM  

Animal Mother...there is nothing innate in you to want God. It is the grace of God to reveal Himself to the individual. Merciful.

Anonymous stg58/Animal Mother December 15, 2012 5:40 PM  

If God reveals himself to you, does your nature change? Do you have the desire to accept God if he reveals himself to you? God revealed himself to the Israelites through his works many times, and they constantly rejected him.

Anonymous Freddy December 15, 2012 5:47 PM  

Revealing, convicting...granting saving faith, thys redeeming stems from the gracious overture of God to undeserving sinners

Anonymous stg58/Animal Mother December 15, 2012 5:50 PM  

But if you still have the same carnal dead nature, how can you accept Jesus if he reveals himself to you? The dead alien sinner is in enmity with God.

Blogger SammyBoy December 15, 2012 6:10 PM  

JJ's opponent shows a bit of poor reading comprehension from the very beginning, so I'd at least start there: Paul doesn't write that the Jews are doing these things or being given over to evil and such as that. Romans 1:18-25 is referring specifically to Gentiles, non-Jews. In chapter 2, he brings the Jews into the discussion (and, to be a little bit fair, he says they do the same kinds of things.) But my first reply to the opponent would be, "Show me that you actually read the book and processed the info before you start telling me how wrong I have it."

Anonymous FrankNorman December 15, 2012 6:14 PM  

Looks like the Calvinists are spamming. Making the same simplistic argument over and over does not make it a good one.

I think the mistake the "Total Depravity" gang are actually making, is taking passages that are specifically talking about one group of people, and applying them to everyone.

Anonymous FrankNorman December 15, 2012 6:17 PM  

Also, I see a "salvation by works" mindset there. "How can you receive salvation if you're a sinner?"
What other kind of person can do so?

Anonymous stg58/Animal Mother December 15, 2012 6:22 PM  

FrankNorman, sorry not a Calvinist, and also not spamming. I was asking Freddy how we can choose God, if we are spiritually dead? I do not believe in eternal salvation by works. Only by grace, which means not doing anything to merit it, which includes choosing or accepting God.

Anonymous Azimus December 15, 2012 6:34 PM  

Bible scholar December 15, 2012 3:20 PM
"Telling us to obey instinct is like telling us to obey 'people.' People say different things: so do instincts. Our instincts are at war... Each instinct, if you listen to it, will claim to be gratified at the expense of the rest." C. S. Lewis


Nicely summed up, BibleScholar. Not your words to be sure, but nicely quoted.

What sort of choice is that? And how big of a thumb is that on the scales?

Regardless, many choose... wrongly. In some ways, if you will permit me some latitude, the only unforgiveable sin is pride - being too proud to accept there is an Authority above you (God), and being too proud to accept His Gift of Forgiveness (Christ).








Anonymous stg58/Animal Mother December 15, 2012 6:44 PM  

Accepting, choosing, believing...how are these not works? Are not saved by grace? If we have to accept the grace before we can be saved, how is this not eternal salvation by works, our works being acceptance, or choice or belief? Jesus told the jews in JOhn 6:29 that belief was the work of God.

Blogger Log December 15, 2012 7:35 PM  

Gee, if only God had said more words than what are recorded in what it pleases us to term the Bible, then maybe there would be a way to clear up some of this confusion. But hey, the canon is closed. Or is it? The canon nowhere says it's closed...

Anonymous zen0 December 15, 2012 9:09 PM  

Gee, if only God had said more words than what are recorded in what it pleases us to term the Bible, then maybe there would be a way to clear up some of this confusion. But hey, the canon is closed. Or is it? The canon nowhere says it's closed...

Do you think you have the authority to add (or subtract) to it?

Anonymous stg58/Animal Mother December 15, 2012 9:13 PM  

Log likes to "help".

Blogger Log December 15, 2012 9:22 PM  

Does what I said bear any relationship, logical or rhetorical, to whether or not I have any authority to add to, or subtract from, the canon of scripture?

Anonymous . December 15, 2012 9:32 PM  

What, nothing from Ta(r)d in this thread?

Anonymous zen0 December 15, 2012 9:40 PM  

What, nothing from......

Why don't you just summon Satan or something?

Anonymous zen0 December 15, 2012 9:41 PM  

Does what I said bear any relationship, logical or rhetorical, to whether or not I have any authority to add to, or subtract from, the canon of scripture?

Just askin, Log dude........it was just a little cryptic.

Anonymous PTR December 15, 2012 9:43 PM  

Zen0

"Well, of course. It is supposed to be a stumbling block to the truth. That is why synagogues of Satan promote it."


Look, since this is the argument that most here seem to think compelling, let's settle this ominderigence once and for all.

The Catholic Church teaches man has free will, therefore man is a puppet; QED.

Can we move on now?

Blogger Desert Cat December 15, 2012 10:24 PM  

Surprised, I am. Eight hours from posting and only 45 comments. Is this horse nearly deceased as well?

Anonymous Outlaw X December 15, 2012 10:44 PM  

Why don't you just summon Satan or something?

Funny you should mention the spiritual world. I can sit down with someone and show them something that will blow their mind. There is no physical explanation for it. It usually just scares the heck out of people and they stay away (A WITCH!). I don't know how it works but it does (no incantations either) and no one can explain it. It isn't water witching it is an immediate effect. If Tad saw it he would pass out.

There is a lot more than what we can see.

Anonymous bob k. mando December 15, 2012 10:59 PM  

it's big, it's heavy, it's wood
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8L6Dpq5kY_A

Anonymous stg58/Animal Mother December 15, 2012 11:15 PM  

Ah Ren and Stimpy. I miss thee so.

Anonymous stg58/Animal Mother December 15, 2012 11:36 PM  

Ah Ren and Stimpy. I miss thee so.

Blogger Tuplis December 16, 2012 1:03 AM  

Sammyboy, are you sure? I believe you have it wrong here.

In Romans 1:19 Paul specifically refers to God having shown that which may be known of Him (and I believe this means the law among other things) and I think it's a better guess to think he meant jews, not gentiles, to whom he refers specifically in Romans 2:14 as people who do not have the law. I'd think it would be rather strange to refer to gentiles as people who knew God (as in Romans 1:21).

Anonymous Outlaw X December 16, 2012 1:14 AM  

Romans 1:19-32

Behold a Pale Horse.

http://www.amazon.com/Behold-Pale-Horse-Americas-Chance/dp/B0085DYC94/ref=sr_1_2?s=movies-tv&ie=UTF8&qid=1355638284&sr=1-2&keywords=behold+a+pale+horse

Anonymous Jesus H. Christ, aka your Savior. December 16, 2012 2:13 AM  

"Free Will, that was a great fucking movie!! I just love those goddamn Orcas!!"'--Jesus Christ, in Uranus.

Anonymous L.W. Dickel December 16, 2012 2:22 AM  

For some reason the lyrics to a childhood song are coming back to me now.

"Jesus loves the little children, all the children of the world, red and yellow, black and white, they are precious to his sight, Jesus loves the little children of the world."

Can I get a big "Praise Jeezuus"!!!

Just imagine what the news might be if Jesus DIDN'T love the little children of the world.

I shudder to even think of it!

Anonymous Sparky December 16, 2012 2:42 AM  

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

And:

And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Obviously, it intones that all had a choice.

Anonymous Outlaw X December 16, 2012 2:48 AM  

If I had any advice for the people before I leave, it would be to memorize the ninth Amendment.

"Article [IX.]

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people. "

Upon this all hangs. It is your Constitution, not theirs.

Blogger ray December 16, 2012 3:22 AM  

When one "gives X over to someone else", one is not dictating their actions, one is withdrawing one's own influence over X and permitting other influences to take precedence.


directly applicable to the events at sandy hook, and a tendency that will be allowed to increase in the absence of national repentance

Anonymous Freddy December 16, 2012 5:16 AM  


Autonomous free-will, improperly understood may color a person's worldview, therefore distorting the character of God. The Triune God is stripped of His sovereignty sometimes unwittingly. The camps circle and ask what is true and how shall we precede? We might entertain an eschatology of optimism considering the bleak economic horizon. Oh, yes, He rules creation, He is the One bringing thr imminent hardships.

Anonymous Kickass December 16, 2012 7:53 AM  

@ Log, are you referring to the Book of Enoch and some of the other ones that were removed from the "cannon" by certain groups? If so, I am interested in what you have to say.

@Outlaw X, could you elaborate on what you are talking about regarding the witchcraft. Are you saying you are doing it?

@Animal Mother, Jesus says that Faith comes by hearing and hearing comes by the word of God. From my understanding, the call goes out and if we reach out in faith He will rush in to help us to believe and to obey.
Also, it is clear that there is some kind of foreknowing involved. I am not a Calvinist, but I don't buy that there is not some kind of "Elect". It is clear that there is.

I explained it to a family member like this. "A hundred years ago we did not exist. But God knew we would and knew us. He knew we would be siblings. You and I were always going to be siblings. Even when we did not exist. Even before our parents were married. Even when I was on this earth before you. Once we were finally siblings, we always will have that bond. But before we existed, the bond did not exist."

I think this explains the foreknowledge part to the best of my understanding right now.

As to everyone getting a chance to hear God, it is clear that EVERYONE does. Otherwise, why all the machinations by Atheists trying desperately to prove to everyone that God does NOT exist...yet they just somehow came up with morality? This show either a tremendous stupidity (which is why there are many believing this while adolescent) or a willful ignorance of life in general and history in particular.

I don't believe a three headed monster exists in my backyard...and it never occured to me to run around and attack anyone who does.

Of course, if my ass is fat I might do everything I can to make it look smaller and only ask those who tell me it does not appear too fat the question of whether it does or not.

God says He spoke to us by creation in that He left evidence of Himself everywhere. If you speak to those in medical and law enforcement fields they will tell you that we have actual, biological reactions to lying. It is too much to go into, but even harded criminals have measurable biological reactions to lying. Even when they don't have a problem with what they are lying about.

God has written Himself in our conscience.

However, they will also tell you that there is a very small percentage of those who can either control it or it does not effect them. They have either trained it out of their body or given themselves over so fully to evil that it is almost as if they do not have a "heart". They have been given over.

He has written Himself in our hearts. We have to CHOOSE to reject Him. Once we do that, we are open to a host of devils who will work hard to keep us this way until our death. Because then the bondage is forever.

If my child is raised by me and I teach them the truth, that is on me. Once they reach adulthood, they have a knowledge of good and evil. If they then chose evil, I will get between them and the evil as much as possible.

However, to many parents sorrow, there comes a time when you have to walk away. Though for Christians I say pray to your last breath. But this is to illustrate the verses selected by Vox.

Once you have rejected God, and there is nothing else staying Him from leaving you (see Abraham contending for the righteous in Soddom and notice the Wife was saved and turned to salt anyway because she turned back), He simply gives you what you asked for.

And far worse is it for those who know the truth and reject it afterwards then those ignorant. God is clear, if the Angels who rejected Him were punished so will we be.

God Bless you my Brothers and Sisters in Christ.

Anonymous Kickass December 16, 2012 7:56 AM  

To the two commenters who are taking my Lord and Savior's name in vain, you have a devil in you and are in great bondage. You will answer for every word that comes out of your mouth. You are here and are hearing the Gospel, it is available to you everywhere. I pray that your minds and hearts would be unshackled and you would be free in Christ Jesus. The torment in your life is from the devils and your own wilful disobedience to the call of God, not from Jesus.

Your captors wish to keep you in chains. Call on Jesus's name and you will be saved. There is salvation in no other name.

Anonymous Kickass December 16, 2012 7:58 AM  

@ Freddy, and in His mercy He brings the hardship that His words will be fulfilled and we may peace as we see they are true and that many may be shaken so the unshakable only remain. I pray the hard times bring many who are lost to be found.

Anonymous Freddy December 16, 2012 3:24 PM  

@Kickass, but the "hardtimes" will only come for those who miss the rapture spaceship because they didn't have the good sense to excercise their "free-will" to "chose" Christ. Dispensational Arminianism is so pathetic.

Anonymous Kickass December 16, 2012 6:06 PM  

Freddy, read it again. The Angels harvest the evil ones amongst us and the righteous shine forth. They are coming for you.

Anonymous 111 December 17, 2012 12:27 AM  

One of the things that comes through sooner or later with most Calvinistic rhetoric is a basic misanthropy.

Anonymous Freddy December 18, 2012 1:59 AM  

The rapture spaceship is a figment of your autonomous theology. Duh...111, read Romans 1 again...consider the Conn. Shootings...depravity of man is everywhere...no wonder Evangelicalism is in the state it is with the rose colored lenses you deny what is all around you

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