The menace of hope
The NYT smells Republican blood in the water and goes for the kill:
This is much more A Phantom Menace than A New Hope.
Funny how quickly some principles collapse when given the right kind of shove. One day, the Republican Party is rock-ribbed restrictionist, dedicated to the proposition that unauthorized immigrants are an invading army of job stealers, welfare moochers and criminals whose only acceptable destiny is to be caught and deported — the border fence forever, “amnesty” never. The next day: never mind. The party suddenly discovers the merits of a working immigration system. Senators like John McCain and Lindsey Graham, who once bravely supported bipartisan reform but slunk away late in the last Bush administration, are scratching at the door again, as if the last five years never happened.One more amnesty and we'll establish the permanent left-liberal majority! You can almost feel them desperately trying to conceal their glee. What is remarkable is that they can't seem to understand that the current travails of Illinois and California are what happens when left-liberals get what they want. It's like letting a five year old kid child drive. There's going to be a crash, it's going to be bloody, and everyone is going to blame those who weren't behind the wheel.
All it took was an election in which millions of Latino voters — many of them the wives and husbands, sons, daughters, grandchildren, cousins, co-workers and friends of those despised “illegals” — overwhelmingly chose President Obama over the man who promised to be deporter in chief. They rejected Mitt Romney by 3 to 1, according to exit polls. Asian-Americans did, too. Republicans looked at a changing America, saw a future of decline and irrelevance for the party, and concluded that immigrants weren’t so bad after all.
This is much more A Phantom Menace than A New Hope.
Labels: decline and fall, immigration, politics
73 Comments:
The New York Times concern trolls the Republicans... who are just dumb enough to agree with the NYT recommendation for what they should do "for their own good".
The quote also demonstrates, yet again, that the Left (correctly) thinks that the Republican party has no real principles, but is driven by political expediency, and will yield if pressed hard enough.
Good to see the Stupid Party is still stupid and cannot learn the lesson correctly.
We should be telling the rest of the world that we will take as many scientists, engineers, and businessmen. Instead, we're telling them that we only want you in America if you'll wash our dishes, mow our lawns, and pick our produce. Lettuce-pickers, dishwashers, and landscapers are easier to manipulate politically than an educated engineer.
I'm surprised that most of the comments are somewhat critical of the NYT's stance, instead of blindly accepting.
Carlos Slim got his money's worth.
P.S. I don't expect NYT to attack Israel's restrictive immigration policies any time soon.
http://mondoweiss.net/2012/10/israeli-leader-of-movement-to-expel-african-asylum-seekers-driven-by-fear-of-miscegenation.html
http://english.al-akhbar.com/node/8323
I always wanted to live in a thrd world hell hole. And to think, now I may not even have to leave home to do it.
There are three certainties in this world: death, taxes, and Republicans failing shit tests.
I once drove a car when I was 5. Fortunately there was no bloody crash, because there happened to be a 3-foot-wide oak tree between me and the street.
So for the libs, this really was one of teh mostest importantest elections evar. It shows that we have crossed over from a somewhat unified national majority to a divided one with all the attendant historical problems, and this past election was the bellwether.
They think their coalition will create Scandinavia here in the US. The character and history of the people don't matter, only the programs. It's an interesting way to go through life.
What is remarkable is that they can't seem to understand that the current travails of Illinois and California are what happens when left-liberals get what they want.
Vox, you are consistently naive about this. The travails of Illinois and California are precisely what progressives WANT.
Furthermore, progressives are counting on you to foolishly assume that progressives are simply misguided and stupid morons who have no idea what they are doing.
Wake up. These are very smart, powerful, and ruthless people we are talking about. They've obviously got you hoodwinked into thinking they are a bunch of dimwits.
"The Left has always given advice to the Right, for good reason. Those who take it deserve it."
Even if the departure from the 2008 election are correct with the current sample, there are some rounding issues that are bothersome.
2008 saw 9% Hispanic voters according to WaPo data with 67/31 split. If voters went as such, with a vote count around 131.26 million, that would have yielded about a 4.25 million margin between Obama/McCain.
Advance to this year's WaPo numbers of 10% with a 71/27 split that we're seeing from multiple polling agencies, and that's an assignment of about 5.55 million of margin with 126.11 million or so. One can say that Hispanic voter spread to the D-ticket moved by 1.3 million or so. Or can we?
What if the exit polls in 2008 were really 9.3% rounded down to 9% and in 2012 were 9.7% rounded up to 10%. These are arbitrary, but if they were true then the divide would fall below 1 million. Still a big number of voters, and of course, the rounding could work the other way. The point is that the science behind the spread has its limits even before you bring up the fact that Texas, the state with maybe the most Republican-leaning Hispanic base was not exit polled.
The WaPo data for VA was interesting in that Hispanic voters actually came out stronger for Romney than they did for McCain. Might we be dealing with some shift in the SW/sand states and South away from a New England rich guy? Bush might have been a transplant with privilege behind him, but he related well to the South and Southwest and drew the vote. Likewise, McCain had long-time roots and none of the silver spoon or big business image.
It would be foolish to ignore the growing Hispanic base as its growth will go exponential by all models, but the impact of the numbers in this last election were probably overblown.
I'm so bored with the USA. Eastern Europe is looking better all the time.
I really need to find a way to move north a couple states.
Though this would probably never happen considering the American press' love affair with the Phalistinian cause, I don't think too many state-side would be opposed to a revolutionary jihadi group declaring a fatwa against the LA/NY Times. They can apparently declare it against a Youtube video, so why not bird cage lining?
"One more amnesty and we'll establish the permanent left-liberal majority!"
They are frauds and liars. Thomas Jefferson was a liberal, these are totalitarian punks.
The travails of Illinois and California are precisely what progressives WANT.
So what do the liberal elites envision as their Utopia?
"If a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand." Mark 3:25; Matthew 12:25
“A house divided against itself cannot stand. I believe this government cannot endure, permanently, half xxxx and half xxxx.” Abraham Lincoln
What is our future? Aztlan?
"There are three certainties in this world: death, taxes, and Republicans failing shit tests." B. Levinson
Bingo. The Republican party is the beta-male of political parties. This would also explain their constant drive to have the military involved in other nations problems the world over. It is a form of white-knighting. This further explains why they tolerate at first and then eventually adopt the stance of the Democratic party(the mulatto butch-lesbian bitch feminist of political parties). They think if they play along that maybe the hot, bubbly chick with the hard body(politically speaking, undecideds, independents)watching will see who they are on the inside and love them for it.
Unfortunately, when given the choice, the hot chick will go lipstick lez for the night before she beds down with a beta. Thankfully, at some point the alpha male(thinking probably nationalists with a libertarian bent) will show up, mockingly shame the Dems, cock block the shit out of the Repubs, and get oral from the Independents in the parking lot before going home to the trophy wife(1st place, hates politics)
"So what do the liberal elites envision as their Utopia?"
A totalitarian dystopia and they seeth for it.
"I swear before God, who seeth us, and who, in the darkness of this night heareth us, never shall my sword cross yours, never my eye express a glance of anger, nor my heart a throb of hatred, at you."
The first two sentences in the article bear no resemblance reality. Only in the ultra leftist viewpoint of the NYT could that opening be written with a straight face. It should have read that after almost 20 years of apologizing and pandering to Hispanics the republicans have decided to say screw it and jettison a portion of their voting base to go full board with another amnesty in the pathetic hopes of grabbing a few percentage points of the brown vote.
What I really don't get is the stupidity of traitors like Rand Paul who seems to think he actually has a shot at getting nominated in 2016. Does he not realize that it is Rubio's to lose at this point. The guy has already been given the damn thing and unless he has a shady past or a Perry like drug addiction it's a done deal.
So what do the liberal elites envision as their Utopia?
What a stupid question. You might as well ask what the Crips envision as their "Utopia". Or what the New York Giants envision as their "utopia".
They want to win and gain as much power as they possibly can. Why is this concept so elusive to you folks?
I don't think that the stats can be that accurate - with the 100+ turnout in districts traditionally turning out 48% or the machines that were fiddled with. Overall it doesn't look like much has changed with Latinos - they go left 2/3rds of the time.
@Outlaw-where is that quote from?
The most hilarious part of the Democrat's victory dance are the calls for a more moderate nominee next time around.
http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/2012/11/the-history-of-moderation.html
They're demanding someone more moderate and centrist than Romney, who they believe was the head of a "populist-religious movement more concerned with purity than power". If this is the accepted view of the majority then America is well and truly f***ed.
@Outlaw-where is that quote from?
Twenty Years After by Alexandre Dumas
Don't know why he quoted it here, though.
"@Outlaw-where is that quote from?"
http://dumas.thefreelibrary.com/Twenty-Years-After/
Bush II was a radical conservative in their eyes, so Romney must have been so as well, right?
@Outlaw and Krul
Thanks!
How are a low IQ people going to continue a WASP style form of government? Not at all.
Demography is destiny and we can thank Ronald Reagan and all those "politically correct Republicans".
Did you know that Martin Luther King was a Republican?!?! The republican party has always been a progressive party! The Republican Party was always about moving the minority "forward"!
From its founding in 1854 as the anti-slavery party until today, the Republican Party has championed freedom and civil rights for blacks.
The Republican Party HAS ALWAYS BEEN Progressive! The word "conservative" in the Anglo-sphere just means a type of liberal. A true conservative is a continental conservative and is for Throne and Altar!
The Republican Party sooner or later adopts the Democratic party line.
The FFofA designed America as a "raceless" country anyway despite one freaky quotation. America is the Novus Ordo--a New Order based on ideology and not on race. It is a propositional country.
The country that I and you know is gone.
"It's like letting a five year old kid child drive"
that, or "Toonces the cat who could almost drive"
sincerely
cheddarman
"It's like letting a five year old kid child drive"
More naive stupidity.
It is nothing like that at all. It is like Jeff Gordon wrecking Clint Bowyers (and wrecking his own car in the process) to keep his team ahead in the standings.
These are seasoned pros. Not ignorant children. Wake up.
The cowards and traitors do not speak for the Republican rank and file. Unlike the professional politicians, we did not suddenly get religion on the positives of illegal aliens. Losing an election in 2012 does not mean we have to bow and scrape to another amnesty scheme. By the way, there was no bigger cheerleader for amnesty than George W. Bush, when he was president, but the outcry from the constituents beat back amnesty after amnesty. Bill Kristol is just another sell-out. Graham and McCain lost the support of their own party over the subject. Now we can add more names to our list of shame.
Rush Limbaugh was right (for a change), when he said the conservatives are supposed to become more liberal when they lose an election but the liberals are not supposed to become more conservative when they lose an election. We have seen this in 2010 and now in 2012.
Maybe next time, the Rockefeller Republicans and the Democrats can get in a contest to see who carries the liberal vote, and the Messican vote, and the gay vote, and the black vote. Who can drift faster to the Left? Watch and see.
So what do the liberal elites envision as their Utopia?
They would rather rule in Hell, than serve in Heaven.
Here's the thing: whites make up 73% of the US population. So, if the Republican party can just pander to the whites, they'd win hands down.
Of course, considering Romney lost by 2 million votes in the popular election, I'd say that all they really have to do is adopt the libertarian vote, but they'd sooner chew off their own third legs.
Which are smaller than the average third leg.
It seems to me that rather than facing the music of a Hispanic-oriented Democratic majority the Republicans should dance to it. They should just admit that this large ethnic group presents problems to American cohesion, and proceed to ask the American people - in essence: "Is this what you want?" I think the broad majority of Americans do not want this, and would vote for a Republican who takes sensible steps against illegal and legal immigration (a wall, a moratorium on immigration or something close to it, etc). At least this approach makes more sense than trying to co-opt Hispanics, which is probably not a realistic option. The only problem, of course, is that taking such a position would not only require courage, but would also require a certain finesse and political skill that I'm not sure any Republican has (Although maybe Rand Paul has it, I'm not sure).
By the way Vox, were you aware of this feeble swing by Brayton last week?
http://freethoughtblogs.com/dispatches/2012/11/15/vox-day-explains-the-election/
Leftists don't merely misunderstand human nature. They don't understand it at all.
I was not going to answer he question, Krul, it is the day before Thanksgiving. there was no special message for the ilk, but someone took notice. Can you say the same thing to your friends and family? I am trying.
Vox, if I may. I want to talk about the table. I want to say that when you sit down before your family remember the table. I won't be sitting down with mine for a reason beyond my control. The Table is the place that Jesus decided to be the center of Christianity, It was the table where the blood and body was shed for others, and tomorrow when you are at the table forget the crazy uncle or the eccentric aunt and just love them for what they are. Happy Thanksgiving and thank God you have another one.
And may we never cross swords.
Twinkie Economics History - Krugman style
I bet he thinks he's pretty clever ... I also bet his cat knows better:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/19/opinion/krugman-the-twinkie-manifesto.html
A critical review of Krug's column:
http://dailycaller.com/2012/11/21/krugmans-twinkie-defense/
Bless you Outlaw X.
May God bless us so that we are thankful, satisfied, and love The Lord.
We may not win the political battles, but in Christ, the Ilk can be triumphant.
Dang! Wrong thread.
Those cowardly imbeciles at the dishonestly named "American Conservative" are wallowing in third-world savage denial too.
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/immigrants-against-empire/
The first immigrants were financed to settle Jamestown as a "commune." They tried it for the first three years but there was general starvation. The governor decided to give each member a plot of land of his own. There was now a surplus of food to consume--enough to celebrate with the feast of Thanksgiving.
This was an early socialist experiment where the correct conclusions weren't drawn. We didn't blame socialism. In fact, we've been making socialism bigger and getting the same negative results. Surely, a fair system like socialism can't be at fault!
No, the problem is us. If we were ants or bees, giving oneself to a socialist colony would be fine. But as luck would have it (are you ready for this?) we happen to be primates. In other words, like it or not, we are related to the monkeys.
Have you ever seen a monkey who depended on the group for survival? Have you ever seen a monkey who didn't forage for food? Have you ever seen a monkey who wasn't an invidual first? Evolution may have tried socialism on on homo sapiens but gave it up. But no, we, in out wisdom, will chase after the dream We still have many generations to go.
I think I know the problem.
Wasn't that the other group (not Jamestown)?
The next day: never mind. The party suddenly discovers the merits of a working immigration system.
Woah, they got some big balls for saying that. Working for... who exactly? Average 'muuuricans? Nope. Legal immigrants who waited their turn? Nope. Illegal immigrants? Most certainly! If I was an illegal alien right now, I'd be raping and pillaging through swafts of "empowered" 'murican women and taking every bit of welfare I could get, while driving drunk without a license for fun and leaving behind bundles of joy here and there, for my harem of hos to raise. No one would stop me. Except maybe linear momentum if I crashed my car drunk. But that's ok, let the free healthcare in the emergency room take care of that one.
Let them have their illegal immigrants. What a bunch of oikophobes, as oppose to xenophobes.
One more amnesty and we'll establish the permanent left-liberal majority! You can almost feel them desperately trying to conceal their glee.
I don't think so. This is not going to end like they think it is, with the economic collapse coming and the coming war. See also: Greece with Golden Dawn rising.
It's like letting a five year old kid child drive. There's going to be a crash, it's going to be bloody, and everyone is going to blame those who weren't behind the wheel.
Well to fair Vox, their left-liberal policies do work for a while. Just like a five-old driving a car works for a bit till it hits something like a pole. It's tremendous fun behind the wheel. The problem is eventually the locusts run out of ants to consume from, but it is fun while it is working to be the locust. "Look at all this FREE shit we get in California! Paradiseeee!"
Republicans truly are the Stupid Party as they keep failing like nice guys. "If only we give liberals THIS, then finally they will like us." They're never going to like you. They hate you. You giving them what they want just proves in their mind you are stupid, and they'll exploit you further. You don't give her what she wants. You crush her ruthlessly like the conniving, scheming bitch that she is.
"You don't give her what she wants. You crush her ruthlessly like the conniving, scheming bitch that she is."
I've been watching you and if I was going to guess your IQ I would put it around 150. But it isn't going to do anything much for you now. It is not 1750 it is 2012. Hope the freaking Mayans were right because you are a dead soldier my friend as am I. I know we have had cross words in the past, but we are the same animal and that animal is nearly extinct.
I've been watching you and if I was going to guess your IQ I would put it around 150.
Much higher. You are only seeing a small piece of the mosaic that comes out of the typing device.
But it isn't going to do anything much for you now
You'd be surprised what I've pay-layed it into.
Hope the freaking Mayans were right because you are a dead soldier my friend as am I. I know we have had cross words in the past, but we are the same animal and that animal is nearly extinct.
This is not over; not by a long shot. The real conflict has just begun, because the systemic problems of a multicultural society are beginning to reveal themselves now that the economic situation has sufficiently deteriorated. Diversity, feminism, affirmative action, and unfettered immigration are all luxuries available when the money is flowing in. Magnetized with the new advances of knowledge in anthropology, sociology, and genetics research, stick'sa buttery fork in it, it is potatoed.
30% of the Democrats in the House are from NY or California. The next big fight, after the fiscal cliff, will be state bailouts.
"Magnetized with the new advances of knowledge in anthropology, sociology, and genetics research, stick'sa buttery fork in it, it is potatoed."
Well my IQ last measured was 142. The last sentence I quoted above makes no sense to me. What do those things have to do with the human condition or a society in denial? Do you think these advances are for our benefit? I take three IQ points away. Like you though.
Wait, I understand now. Damn I am slow that is eugenicist language. Go try it. You will lose. There are a bunch of 110 IQ people who can shoot much better. I know them.
Lower IQ's may be ruthless due to not be burdened by overthinking, and they may win in the short term, whether it be violence or outbreeding competition; but rebuilding a stable civilization requires some form of patience, understanding of long-term consequences, and some degree of innovation beyond subsistence level existence. Disregarding Gaza and the most of the Arab middle east, most functioning societies end up desiring to move beyond the infrastructure of the caveman's club.
Well my IQ last measured was 142. The last sentence I quoted above makes no sense to me. What do those things have to do with the human condition or a society in denial? Do you think these advances are for our benefit? I take three IQ points away. Like you though.
"Magnetized with the new advances knowledge in anthropology, sociology, and genetics research" (strengthened in energy level) => "stick'sa buttery fork" (metal object) => "it is potatoed" (wrapped in metal foil, plus a butter and fork analogy)
The whole liberal (sometimes libertarian and even Republican) worldview rests on the fact that they think populations can be exchanged. It's where they get feminism from: men and women being the same and interchangable, underperformance the result of sexism. Along with multiculuralism: all cultures are equal, with the cultural differences merely social conditioning, not genetics, with underperformance the result of racism. Or unlimited immigration: all populations are the same, so what is the harm with letting in 50 million Mestizo or Indio Mexicans, after all it worked well with Italians and Scots-Irish.
Recent advances in these fields show this is simply not the case. Yet, society is still in denial... for now.
Damn I am slow that is eugenicist language. Go try it. You will lose. There are a bunch of 110 IQ people who can shoot much better. I know them.
a) Try what? I don't need to try anything. Reality always reasserts itself in the end.
b) You fail to see that 110 IQ is still about the 75th-percentile, making them smarter than 3/4 people they bump into in public (maybe 90% at Walmart). Only about 8% of blacks hit 110. This has consequences.
c) Pointing out differences is not eugenics, it's seeing reality. No more than comparing average human heights means I want to kill all the short people. But you still must be this tall to ride this ride.
Lower IQ's may be ruthless due to not be burdened by overthinking, and they may win in the short term, whether it be violence or outbreeding competition; but rebuilding a stable civilization requires some form of patience, understanding of long-term consequences, and some degree of innovation beyond subsistence level existence.
The problem is, it seems like traits of patience, conscientiousness, impulsivity, and pro-sociality seem to be genetically passed on much like IQ. Just like alcoholism and addictive personalities run in families.
So if I get a 120 IQ German, he is going to be much less impulsive and more neurotic on average than a 120 IQ Italian.
In conclusion: different groups of people are different.
What a truly amazing observation!
I figured throwing in the Gaza/Caveman comparison made that clear on my part.
The left has been saying that our immigration system is "broken" for a few years now, and we need a "working" system. Keep repeating it, and the average person accepts it common knowledge, and assumes it is a concensus opinion.
By "broken" they mean it is difficult to immigrate to the U.S. and a "working" system is one that facilitates immigration. Without ever actually bringing it up for debate, the left is establishing the idea that our immigration policies exist only to assist prospective immigrants; screening and border control are illegitimate.
Once established, the next step: if immigration policy exists to assist immigrants, wouldn't an open border policy be the most efficient?
We'll establish a Department of New Americans, with offices in every major city and all along the border. Just sign in, get your EBT card (with back pay for all those years we denied your American-ness), and get your voter location card. Not sure where that is? You can pre-vote now for the next 12 years. Vote again to be safe, and don't worry if you move - you can vote there, too.
Excellent post VD. Loved how you managed to work a Star Wars reference in there as well.
On the other hand, maybe the fact it was so obvious is why nobody other than me referred to it.
This is great!!
We had the same problem back in the 1850's with those damn white catholic papists from Ireland to New York.
When are we all going to realize that only nativists should be allowed live here ... that is once all the indians are removed onto casinos.
Buchanan's latest column destroys this immigration argument. Republicans are too cowardly to accept it though.
Travails of California and Illinois? What travails? Those places are paradises! Any minor financial problems they're having can be cured by unlimited money printing and a graduated taxation scheme with a top marginal rate of 91%. Heck, Paul Krugman would agree with me, so I can't be wrong about this.
johnc wrote: "Buchanan's latest column destroys this immigration argument. Republicans are too cowardly to accept it though."
Yup. And he's also had many columns and books over the years on the same subject. His books "Death of the West", "Where the Right Went Wrong", and, I think, "A Republic, Not an Empire", all discuss this issue. And those were from 10 years ago. Talk about Republicans having plenty of time to absorb this concept. Like you said, they're too cowardly to deal with it. Probably afraid of being called raciss' or something.
I figured throwing in the Gaza/Caveman comparison made that clear on my part.
I was fleshing it out more explicitly.
We had the same problem back in the 1850's with those damn white catholic papists from Ireland to New York.
When are we all going to realize that only nativists should be allowed live here ... that is once all the indians are removed onto casinos.
You do realize they assimilated eventually because Irish are still considered caucasian, correct? Thank you for bringing up the Indians/Native Americans though. The genetic markers linked to their high rates of alcoholism were identified just a few years ago. Have you seen their diabetes rates as well? I wonder why that is... genes maybe? Why do Asians flush red more on average when drinking ethanol? Genes... perchance?*
* They have the Alcohol dehydrogenase 1B (or 1C) (class I), beta (or gamma) polypeptide enzyme coupled with the mitochondrial ALDH2 allele that is altered in Asian populations, meaning there Acetaldehyde dehydrogenase enzyme is reduced, which means the ability to metabolize Acetaldehyde into Acetic Acid is reduced. Acetaldehyde is what causes hangover effects.
Most certainly, Vox. There will be a crash and very likely a Texas-sized pileup. There will be blood and too many of the ones alive today will not survive the excitement. But what is even more important.....and you are double-secret correct.....certain people will be BLAMED and the angry ones will search high and low to try to find them. And woe to the ones who are found.
There is an old Texas expression...."hanging is too good for them"....and we are sure to hear some variants on this same theme, by no means limited to the confines of Texas.
Republican politician, give yourself to the Dark Tide. It is the only way you can save your phoney baloney job. Yes, your thoughts betray you...
Idle says " ...You do realize they assimilated eventually because Irish are still considered caucasian, correct? ... Thank you for bringing up the Indians/Native Americans though"
Well it would not be the first time that I were to say "I know nothing"
The Irish at the time were called the white negro ... and assimilated is perhaps a rosy eyed description of what really happened.
Then that damn Dred caused all that panic in 1857... I guess it is true .. those that forget history are bound to repeat themselves... themselves .. themselves . themselves
I for one am looking forward to this amnesty. It would be amusing to show the Immigration agents my green card before I vaporise them.
> Bush II was a radical conservative in their eyes, so Romney must have been so as well, right?
The left, at least the left I am familiar with, view Pres. GW Bush as a radicial, not necessarily conservative, Republican.
Which I think is pretty defensible. He was a sort of blue-blood big government happy warrior.
The GeOPapists seem to be taking way too much advice from their fellow Authoritarians on the Left already, as witnessed by their nomination of Comrade-R:
A left-leaning, gun-grabbing, double-tongued hypocrite who was NEVER going to get enough traction for the win.
BTW, 41% of white voters went for 0bama, and I would be hard-pressed to imagine the minority of them that weren't pasty-white Jews were anything other than old farts seeking bigger gimmes & dumb blonds with 'chucker boyfriends.
Without that 41%, Obama would have lost, but that's also about what proportion of the white demographic are Papist...you do the math!
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